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Pump Question

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idgy

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I am in the process of planning a 58 gallon Oceanic reef tank. It is a reef ready tank and I already have a Lifereef sump. I am now working on the issue of water movement. I have built a pvc spray bar that will sit behind an egg crate and pvc platform that will support the live rock.

Here's my question - if you look at the attached diagram, I'd like to share a pump for my spray bar and 1/2" Sea Swirl. I already own a Mag 5 and was wondering if that would be enough to power them both? When you look at the diagram, it's important to note that if the Mag 5 is sitting in the sump, it will pass through aprox 5' of hose on it's way to both the spray bar inside the tank and the Sea Swirl.

Any adivce would be greatly appreciated!
 

bradreef

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a mag 5 is rated around 300 gph at 4 feet of head. add the 90 degree angles thatare associated with the sea swirl and at best you have a moving mj1200 on the sea swirl without the spraybar plumbed in. I would run the mag 5 on the spray bar by itself.
 

idgy

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what if I bought a pump larger enough to handle both the spraybar and the sea swirl? Does it have to be two different pumps?
 

wrightme43

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Then you would be cool. and not have two pumps heating your water up. It would be better for you. Say a Mag 9.5 or a Mag 12. I use the Quiet One 6000 and I like them alot. In different tanks I have 4 of them running with no problems at all so far. Just my experince. HTH Steve
 

fishermann

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I would run two sept pumps. You want a lot of preasure driving your spray bar so you get strong flow coming out of the bar, and I would run it as a closed loop system. You want slower flow going through your sump to give your skimmer timw to skim the water flow, and if you plan on running your sump as a refugium you need even slower flow through it. Also you well need to run power heads or Tunze streams or some outlets run off of the closed loop for current in the tank, so it kind of depends on how much current your after and that depends on what kind of corals you want to keep. Sps requires more then say softies and if you want a anemone it well not like alot of current if you want it to stay in one spot. I think your Mag 5 is probably fine for the sump but you well need more pump for the spray bar and if you do run it all on one pump don't forget to put a siphon break in the spray bar line so if the pump quits you don't siphon all the water out of your tank down to the spray bar.
 

bradreef

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mag 24 you would have to split off a few different ways. remember he only has the 1/2 inch seaswirl. 1/2 inch plumbing would reduce the flow a ton. go with the 9.5 by itself or add a mag 7.
 

idgy

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WOW! Too many choice and I am still confused. At this point I have my skimmer pump and the pump to run the water from the sump to the tank. Both are going to be in the sump. If I add two other pumps one for the spraybar and one for the sea swirl that will be four pump in my sump.

Is that too much? Would that create too much heat?
 

DonW

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A mag24 plumbed with 1" then reduced at the sea swirl and the spray bar will still only get you 30 times turn over. Which is pretty good just not spread efficiently if these are your only outlets or means of flow.

I personally would consider a mag9 for a return. This will slow the flow through the sump and allow more contact time for the skimmer and heater.
Then maybe two streams in the tank for circulation leave the sea swirl off.

Don
 

Abissus

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This is really interesting since I have a similar setup also and I have not yet decided how to plumb the seaswirl.

I think I read 1/2" seaswirl can only handle up to 500gph, so I have not been thinking using so powerful of a pump.
 

les

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To all of you undecided folks out there; buy the most pump and flow diverters you can afford. If planning on an SPS tank then go high, if going softie then maybe not to high of flow. On my new 400 gallon it will have about 245 GPM (not GPH) distributed throughout the tank.

Just my opinion.
 

wrightme43

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Now this is a question I have. Maybe I just am not seeing it the same way. The sump and the tank are connected. The water in one is the water in the other. Having a skimmer in the sump is (in my mind) is exactly the same as having the skimmer in the tank. I can not see how a slow flow thru the sump can give any more benifit than a fast flow thru the sump. The skimmer is going to pull the same stuff out of the same water no matter what.
Do you know about eductors for the seaswirl? They are not expensive and for every gallon pumped in the pump out 5 gallons. That is what I am planing for my next upgrade and MH of course. LOL
A mag 24 would be great. I agree with Ed there. I would just do it a little different. (my opinion again. LOL) I would split it to the spray bar and put a valve in to the seaswirl so you didnt over load it. Or Use a bigger sea swirl like the one inch and put a Y fitting on it. Have you gone to seaswirls website? I have been going there and asking questions and I read all of the FAQ posts. Some of them seem like they would apply to your question as well. I used google to find it. HTH Steve
 

DonW

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wrightme43 said:
Now this is a question I have. Maybe I just am not seeing it the same way. The sump and the tank are connected. The water in one is the water in the other. Having a skimmer in the sump is (in my mind) is exactly the same as having the skimmer in the tank. I can not see how a slow flow thru the sump can give any more benifit than a fast flow thru the sump. The skimmer is going to pull the same stuff out of the same water no matter what.
NO. The dirty water comming off your overflow goes to the sump, from there it is either skimmed or returned dirty back to the tank. If the flow is to high its just going to zing by the skimmer and go back in dirty. The idea is to try to match the flow to the skimmer, this way you get more of the crud back out. Try to get it in one pass not many passes. Turn up the flow to your sump and watch your skimmer output fall on its face.
The same goes for the heater. You cannot heat it if its going by to fast.

I believe that the 1/2 SS can only handle 500 gph. They also cannot handle pressure. Pressure is what is needed to make eductors work. The same pressure is what causes the SS motor to bind and burn up.

Don
 

les

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NO. The dirty water coming off your overflow goes to the sump, from there it is either skimmed or returned dirty back to the tank. If the flow is to high its just going to zing by the skimmer and go back in dirty. The idea is to try to match the flow to the skimmer, this way you get more of the crud back out. Try to get it in one pass not many passes. Turn up the flow to your sump and watch your skimmer output fall on its face

Don, Are you sure? :confused: It seems to me that the amount of skimmate removed in 24 hours would be based on the amount of water pumped through the skimmer, not the velocity of water through the sump.

The same goes for the heater. You cannot heat it if its going by to fast.

This simply is not so, BTU transfer is BTU transfer, regardless of water velocity. What you will see is a lower temperature rise through it. If you put 1000 watts of heaters in the tank/sump you will get 1000 watts of heat into the water. (assuming they are working) :)
 

wrightme43

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I understand what your saying. I just cant understand why it would be that way. To me it just doesnt make sense. I will keep thinking on it. I am not in anyway saying your wrong. I just cant make sense of it. To me if the water that is going into the overflow is dirty, it cant be any cleaner than the water in the tank. I know that most molecules have a air attracted end and that is what a surface overflow is for. I know that is how skimmers work. I (and this is just how my brain sees it) believe all of the water is the same, I think what ever is dissolved in the water is equally distributed by flow. I just dont understand how once the water goes into the sump it is any different than the water in the tank. I mean if you set a giant euro reef in your tank and let it skim how in the world can it be any different that setting a giant euro reef in your sump. The water is all the same. I know this goes against conventional wisdom about flow in a sump. I just am not able to understand why this is conventional wisdom. Please Don understand it is nothing about you. I like your ideas and really enjoy reading and converseing with you. I just wanna know why you believe the way you do. The way I see it if the case was to super clean the water before pumping it back. Why dont sumps just overflow 10 gallons skim it till it stops skimming then turn on pump it back in and the take the next 10 gallons to clean, and only use closed loops for circulation? I may have this just all confused in my head. I try to figure stuff out and sometimes (read often) LOL I spend days mulling things over in my head. I hope you can make some sense out of my ramblings. LOL Thanks Steve
 

DonW

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les said:
NO. The dirty water coming off your overflow goes to the sump, from there it is either skimmed or returned dirty back to the tank. If the flow is to high its just going to zing by the skimmer and go back in dirty. The idea is to try to match the flow to the skimmer, this way you get more of the crud back out. Try to get it in one pass not many passes. Turn up the flow to your sump and watch your skimmer output fall on its face

Don, Are you sure? :confused: It seems to me that the amount of skimmate removed in 24 hours would be based on the amount of water pumped through the skimmer, not the velocity of water through the sump.

The same goes for the heater. You cannot heat it if its going by to fast.

This simply is not so, BTU transfer is BTU transfer, regardless of water velocity. What you will see is a lower temperature rise through it. If you put 1000 watts of heaters in the tank/sump you will get 1000 watts of heat into the water. (assuming they are working) :)
Yup, Im sure. The solids fly by never making it into the skimmer then they are trapped in the baffles or returned to the tank.
1k watts is 1k watts, yes. If the water is passing to quickly it simply will never be heated and just returned back to the tank. Pass your hand over a lit candle. Go quickly you will not be burned go slowly you will. If you were trying to burn your hand it would take many passes vs a single pass slowly. The btu's never changed, just the hand being heated.

Don
 

fishermann

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Steve you are rite in the sense that the water is the same, but a high flow won,t give as much time for the water around the skimmer to get in the skimmer before returning to the tank with the same detritus you tank worked so hard to get into the sump so it can be skimmed. As you know detritus is always trying to settle in the cracks in the LR and once we get it in the sump the more we can get skimmed before reurning to the tank the less our tank system well have to work to keep it suspended for collection later.
 

wrightme43

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OK now in my mind I see it different. If that were the case why would you put a fan on your radiator in your car. Why would a heater have a blower motor. How does water boil while I stir it. and how come my make up water gets hot with a power head blowing on the titianium heater? I dont care how fast water is moving if it is in a closed system all of the water is treated the same no mater how fast it is moving. If it were a open system that would make sense. I would think that a fast moving system would maintain equilibruim of temp and cleanliness better than a slow system. Just my opinion. Steve
 
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