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Salt the question, once again!

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Scooterman

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Guess I just can't get enough. The last 4 200g buckets of IO has been fairly consistent for me, cloudy with some undissolved particulate, as normal with IO. I find that I also have to bump up the CA, & MG a little each time. I want to test IO for Phosphates, I'm thinking it has more than to 0 they claim on the bucket. Switching salts has been disastrous for me but It is getting to the point that I want to try either one of two salts available locally, Tropic Marian or the New Oceanic. Has anyone personally tested either one of these for phosphates?
 

reedman

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Out of curiousity, what is the disasterous part of switching salts? Are you getting a large swing in some parameters or something that is really affecting your tank? I was thinking of switching as well, but now you've got me thinking twice.
 

Scooterman

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Small water changes with a certain salt eventually caught up to me, it took a while before the balancing act was shifted way crazy, part of this was my fault for not retesting before and after each small water change, by the time I figured it out it was way off, but after a few panic attacks, the fix was easily fixed with a few large volume water changes of the original salt mix.
 

DonW

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All the salts seem to be a little off in one direction or another. With the salifert test I get no detectable P in the Oceanic mix. My water changes are usually ten 9.5 gallons in two 5G buckets. With the oceanic I have to raise the alk with 1 tsp Arm and Hammer per bucket. This brings the mix into balance with the higher 35ppt salinity. After a few tries I got it close to perfect and only test the new mix after I buy a new bucket of salt.

Don
 

WaterDogs

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DonW said:
...With the oceanic I have to raise the alk with 1 tsp Arm and Hammer per bucket. This brings the mix into balance with the higher 35ppt salinity. After a few tries I got it close to perfect and only test the new mix after I buy a new bucket of salt.

Don
Hello Don,

I am curious as to why you using baking soda? That has been known to be a very short term alk fix as in losing its effectiveness sometimes overnight thus not being recommended.

Dwaine
 

NaH2O

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Scott - I also tested my Oceanic for phosphates via Salifert kit, and came up zero. I use the baking soda mix from Randy Holmes-Farley's article, and have now made a new batch of 6-1 baking soda to washing soda (haven't had to use it yet though).
 

reedman

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Waterdogs,

Where is the documented proof that this is a short term fix. I have seen and heard from several people that this is the equivalent (or very close to) of the alk products sold at the pet stores (only affordable). If you can site some papers or something that would be great, but I find it hard to believe that chemists would openly state that a baking/washing soda mix will work to supplement your alk if it was in fact questionable.

I don't mean to launch an attack, so please don't take it that way, but I don't want people freaking out about using something that has been used for years unless there is good evidence of a real problem.

Please do provide your feedback on this. It may be a great debate for another thread.
 

esmith

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Shoreline, WA
I have to say that I tried using Tropic Marin for a short period and was shocked by the amount of phosphates the Salifert test kit showed...comparing a batch of the TropicMarin to a batch of IO I got TM == 10 +...IO == 0. I only decided to test that batch of TM after my testing returned an extremely hight level of phosphates (near 25), I had originally been using the IO but wanted to change to something that would dissolve better with less residual particulate (bad idea). It too me a couple months to get rid of the algae bloom that I got from using the TM, but that was over 6 months ago and everything is fine now.

I've know of quite a few people using the new Oceanic salt and they are extremely happy with it. I am almost out of IO, and when I move everything over to my 75 gallon in the next month or so I'm considering switching over to Oceanic.

HTH,

Eliyah
 

cwcross

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If you want to swith salts, I would suggest to do smaller and more frequent water changes with the new salt for a few times, watch parameters and adjust as needed (5% changes 10 times over a few days). Then if everything looks OK, do about 5 or 6 LARGE water changes of 25% or better at a more normal schedule (as large as you can accomodate really). It actually takes quite a while to do a salt changeover unless you can do a single large 100% water change. For instance, imaging doing a series of 50% water changes. The original salt percentage will go something like this:

chg 1 50%
chg 2 25%
chg 3 12.5%
chg 4 6.25%
chg 5 3.125%...etc.

If doing 25% water changes it will take even more for instance

chg 1 75%
chg 2 56%
chg 3 42%
chg 4 32%
chg 5 24%

During the first few changes, the water parameters will likely change rapidly relative to what you are used to. Also, one helpful thing would be to do complete tests on the orginal salt and then do complete tests also on the new salt to see how they differ and make sure you like what you see and what you should expect. Doing a few small water changes first should give your animals time to adjust to the new water slowly at first. The formula of (1-%chg/100)^x can be used to figure out what percent change you will accomplish. Here is how this would work for 10x5% changes. (1-0.05)^10 (^10 means to the 10th power) = 0.6 That means that doing 10x5% changes would leave 60% of the original salt or a 40% salt replacement.

Sincerely...Collin
 

cwcross

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baking soda or washing soda are fine and are basically just what alkalinity is. Alkalinity in salt water is a mixture of Carbonate and bi-carbonate. Baking Soda and Washing soda are quite pure forms of these materials. Also they will convert in to one another to reach equilibrium in the presence of CO2 and Water so it doesn't really mater which one you use, excepting you have to use more of one than the other and the initial pH effects are different. Comercial brands are Alk adjustment are one of the two above or a mixture that is buffered. When adding either of the soda's to a tank with animals though, it should just be added slowly and watch the pH until you see how things (like the pH, your alk and your animals) react. Generally 1 tsp of baking soda would change 50 gallons of water about 0.4 milliequivelants/L or 1 dKH
 

esmith

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Collin that is some great information, thank you. Do you think that you need to completely replace all of the old salt water with the new, or wouldn't it be alright to just keep up with your normal water changing schedule and eventually there'd be no more of the IO salt left in the water?

I think I'd better get started working on changing over to the new salt now before I do the move into the 75 gallon.

Eliyah
 

Scooterman

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Great informaion, any phosphate test on IO & Tropic Marian, I'm curious about IO, more so. I just don't like a effects of IO, it doesn't mix well, even after over night areation.
 

cwcross

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Eliyah,

Yes, that is OK too. Whatever works. I would just suggest starting with some small changes first. The idea being to acclimate your animals to the new salt and to make sure there are no adverse effects of mixing the salts. I always hear stories about bad things happening with mixing salts. I personally have never had problems. However, the potential is there for precipitation of insoluble salts due to common ion effects and changes in pH and other parameters due to different buffer system etc. None of these things should be a problem as long as one goes slow. If you initially do a normal sized or large water change, the potential for problems is larger. 3 or 4 small but frequent changes will get you off to a good slow start. I would target to change about 30-40% of old salt out with small frequent changes and then it is less critical from that point on. One could easily just make up one big bucket of new salt and then just take a week or so and do a 5% water change every day. After that you could resume a normal schedule. Of course this is just a safety recomendation. I'm sure many have just done it all at once. Of course some of these may have had problems too....Just MHO..

Sincerely...C
 

Illusion

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Apr 8, 2004
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I do the Exact same thing With my oceanic in raising the Alk up... I have been using Oceanic for about 4 months now and have had no issues what so ever... I tested for po4 with Salifert and also got a 0 reading... I changed from CS to Oceanic... I have tried just about every Salt except TM... TM and Oceanic are probably the 2 best salts out on the market... Everytime I have changed over from different salts I have done simple 2g water changes weekly in my 55g tank.. After a month I jump up and do my normal 5g change... After a few weeks of that I get real cocky and change out about 15g for a few times and then go back to my 10g monthly WC..

James
 

Witfull

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Jan 27, 2004
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New Jersey
i do it a bit different,, i buffer my RO water with A&H before mixing. i add 1 TSP to 40G tub and let it airate. then ill mix my salt up from that water using Oceanic.
 

Illusion

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Apr 8, 2004
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WOW it really seems as though Oceanic took a Good chunk or buyers away from IO and Kent LOL... I know that as soon as oceanic came out I was using it.. I have gone thru 3 200g buckets and going to be starting on my fourth... Habib from Salifert also talked with them about the Higher Levels in Ca and Mg at 35ppt and informed them they should adjust the mix accordingly as most mix to this strength since they set their mix to show about 450ppm of Ca at 1.023 Check on RC in the Salifert Sponsor forum for more info..

James
 

zeltar

Proud new papa....
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Mar 18, 2004
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Southern Ca.
Not to hijack this thread, but how long has Oceanic been around? I was at my LFS tonight and talking about my tank and LR needs etc. and he mentioned that salt, which I've never heard of. So it seems to be good stuff based on the previous posts? It is cheaper than the others he carries.
 

WaterDogs

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Sep 5, 2003
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Snohomish, WA
reedman said:
Waterdogs,

Where is the documented proof that this is a short term fix. I have seen and heard from several people that this is the equivalent (or very close to) of the alk products sold at the pet stores (only affordable). If you can site some papers or something that would be great, but I find it hard to believe that chemists would openly state that a baking/washing soda mix will work to supplement your alk if it was in fact questionable.

I don't mean to launch an attack, so please don't take it that way, but I don't want people freaking out about using something that has been used for years unless there is good evidence of a real problem.

Please do provide your feedback on this. It may be a great debate for another thread.
Chill out dude! I could ask you all the same questions reversed...
 
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