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When did hearsay become proven science??

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dgasmd

Fragologist Magnus
Joined
Nov 30, 2003
Messages
473
Location
Florida
OK, I have a few questions to throw out in public. I am very tired and after working 30+ hours straight I am easily coaxed into an argument :oops:

It is amazing to me how so much of what we believe to be common sense in the hobby or even undisputable information is nothing but well propagated hearsay.

-How come I can grow SPS and have clams grow and thrive under 150/175 watt MH? The sun is so much brighter than that and yet they grow faster in my aquarium.
-If most fish ahve a very limited lifespan in the ocean due to predation, how come people call me criminal if my fish die in a year or two?
-How come all the so called hard to find and "rare" corals in the trade are hardly ever classified as hard to find in nature?
-How come I can grow SPS and have clams under VHO when everybody and their mother says it is impossible?
-How come my friend does not ahve a skimmer and goes for 6 months without a water change and he still have a very nice tank?
-How come people that have no tank or can't keep one alive are categorized as "experts" in the hobby?
-How come if 6500K bulbs are the only full spectrum bulbs similar to sunlight and all the others lack so much and have over abundance in narrow spectrums like 20000K bulbs, my corals still color up so nice and grow faster than in the ocean even with 20000K bulbs?
-How come if water quality in my tank is so much crappier than the ocean the corals color up and grow faster than the ocean?
-How come if corals are supposed to eats pounds of all this stuff I can't supply they still grow faster than in the ocean with the master menu?
-What does a skimmer really take out?
-What does the skimmate really do for the corals by depriving them of it?
-Do all skimmers take out the same compounds out of the water or do they vary in concentration and quantity based on the type of skimmer used?
-Does a tall skimmer really work better than a shorter one with the larger volumes of air we are using these days?
-Why are UV sterilizers really bad?
-Why are UV so good for tanks?
-Why are SPS corals in captivity much more brittle than the slow growing corals in the ocean?


The list goes on and on. I know there is some scientific evidence to suggest that there is common sense and good logic to point one in a method's way, but most of it is based on what goes on in the ocean, which we all know is a far cry from what goes on in our glass boxes.

Throw me a bone here.......................... :cool:
 

Scooterman

Administrator
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
10,943
Location
Louisiana
dgasmd said:
-If most fish ahve a very limited lifespan in the ocean due to predation, how come people call me criminal if my fish die in a year or two?
-Throw me a bone here.......................... :cool:
I think your confused, people call you a criminal for other reasons.....:badgrin:
 

Ed Hahn

Life is A Highway...
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
3,955
Location
Kennewick, Wa
Boy, You know I love to to talk...


question was....How come my friend does not have a skimmer and goes for 6 months without a water change and he still have a very nice tank?
My Answer even though it may not always be right..
Steve Tyree could be that person. He uses natural filtration methods. Natural filtration methods being sea squirts, sponges, clams.

I can try to answer each one of these...Roberto, you know I love to talk...
lmao,
Ed
 
Last edited:

gehidore

wik, pioneerwest madman
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
120
Location
near the pine trees (chehalis WA)
Ed Hahn said:
Boy, You know I love to to talk...


question was....How come my friend does not have a skimmer and goes for 6 months without a water change and he still have a very nice tank?
My Answer even though it may not always be right..
Steve Tyree could be that person. He uses natural filtration methods. Natural filtration methods being sea squirts, sponges, clams.

I can try to answer each one of these...Roberto, you know I love to talk...
lmao,
Ed
Heh, I use a skimmer but rarely do waterchanges due to lazyness. I have not lost a fish since the temp spike minus my cow fish's who either got sick or stuck somewhere.
 

Llarian

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2004
Messages
556
Location
Seattle, WA
How come if 6500K bulbs are the only full spectrum bulbs similar to sunlight and all the others lack so much and have over abundance in narrow spectrums like 20000K bulbs, my corals still color up so nice and grow faster than in the ocean even with 20000K bulbs?

Hmmmm...

IIRC water absorbs light more towards the red end of the spectrum, so the further down into the water you go (Most of us are not keeping exposed species), the more blue the light would get. From most of the pictures I've seen, the more brightly colored corals on the reef are the ones a bit further below the water surface (which makes sense from what I understand of zoox growth).

Just speculation. =)

-Dylan
 

The R/C Man

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 20, 2004
Messages
423
Location
Spokane WA
WOW! I believe most of your questions can be answered by you doing a little research. I can't type fast enough to make it worth my time to answer everything... All those questions have logical answers. Example: Skimmers remove disolved organics from the water (crap) if you don't remove it then eventually the water quality will become so poluted (nitrate, nitrite, ammonia) things will start to die. I would say corals first then the fish. Ok one more: Maybe corals and clams will live under inadaquite lighting and even grow under those conditions but I would be willing to bet they aren't as healthy as they should be...... Lighting: the sun is intense, we have a hard time hard reproducing it. 20k bulbs are on the blue side of the light spectrum. These light waves are able to penetrate the water deeper than 6500k and with greater intensity. Color of an object is based on the portion of the spectrum that is not absorbed by that object. A blue acro appears bluer under lighting that emmits those waveleangths.... There are answers for all your questions my friend. Just go looking for them. Be sure to get your answers from reputable sources. Don't take my word for it.......
 

jlehigh

Hermit D Crab
Joined
Nov 20, 2003
Messages
1,208
Location
Kirkland/Juanita
Preach it dgasmd! It's a hobby of science with pretty colors and endless possibilities. Add the diversity of the hobbyists in the mix and you get skimmate soup :)

May I ask what the growth rate for SPS is in the wild? Haven't been able to find that one..
 

wrightme43

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 1, 2004
Messages
4,355
Location
bowling green ky
Uhhhhh. Maybe some people use their heads for a hat rack, and not to think with. I have come to the conclusion that we are domesticating corals, shrimp, fish, anemone and all other creatures we get to reproduce in our tanks. I understand that it is a slow process but I believe it is happening. I mean we are selecting for the survivors. On another subject, when my moray ate my fire fish, in the wild that would be perfectly normal, and nobody would of complained (except the firefish) LOL Here it cost me money and it bothered me. (Trapped and sold the moray monday)
On lighting Dylan there hit it on the head. LOL
On people saying this and that here is a simple motto that does me well
Take what you want and leave the rest
Thats in reffernce to what people tell me.
I understand what your getting at. I pretty much agree with you.
I have anemone, sps, lps, clams and pretty much every thing I want thriving under compact flor. I do keep my water very clean though.
Steve
 

les

DIY Freak
Joined
Apr 11, 2004
Messages
126
Location
Kennewick WA
I'm of the opinion that there are as many ways/methods of keep a captive reef as there are species in the ocean. Why every time I turn around someone somewhere has made a new discovery, be it a new method or a new species.
I have also stated, and will stand by this statement that there are only two things that aquarists will agree on.
The reef tank needs water
The reef tank needs salt.
Everything else is up for grabs. I do what I want regardless of what someone else is doing. I am one that only changes my methods when I have to, and only when I notice something is doing poorly.
That being said, for every reef keeper out there, there are 10 or so opinions about the "RIGHT" way of doing it.
If what you are doing or your friends are doing works then by all means keep at it. :)
 

dnjan

alveopora
Joined
Sep 9, 2003
Messages
1,585
Location
Seattle
dgasmd said:
-What does a skimmer really take out?
-Do all skimmers take out the same compounds out of the water or do they vary in concentration and quantity based on the type of skimmer used?
I would love to see somebody who has access to the equipment do an analysis on some skimmate, and at least determine the types and molecular lengths of the compounds removed. I suspect that those two factors are somewhat sensitive to bubble surface tension (bubble size) and contact time. And of course, the concentrations of the various compounds would vary from tank to tank (I assume that tanks with high redox would have a lower percentage of longer-chain organics than tanks with lower redox).
 

jlehigh

Hermit D Crab
Joined
Nov 20, 2003
Messages
1,208
Location
Kirkland/Juanita
There was research done analyzing solid and liquid skimate as well as the same stuff found in Xenia and Macro algae's. Now I just need to find it... The study concluded that although Xenia and macros did perform nutrient export the skimmer was by far the most effective... I'll look for it when I get a minute..
 

dnjan

alveopora
Joined
Sep 9, 2003
Messages
1,585
Location
Seattle
The R/C Man said:
Don,

Good Idea! You should spearhead the research on that one... :D
I wish I could! Unfortunately, I don't have access to the necessary equipment. I could, however, contribute a cup of skimmate ...
 

mojoreef

Reef Keeper
Joined
Jul 5, 2003
Messages
7,530
Location
Sumner
Excellent you grumpy old man!!!!!!! :lol:
lets dig into this a bit
-How come I can grow SPS and have clams grow and thrive under 150/175 watt MH? The sun is so much brighter than that and yet they grow faster in my aquarium.
Well you still get alot of light onto the corals and clams because of the depth of the tank, also sps and clams can make up for loss of carbon supplied by Photosynthisis by absorbsion and slime netting capture. All your doing is playing with percentages.
-If most fish ahve a very limited lifespan in the ocean due to predation, how come people call me criminal if my fish die in a year or two?
Ahhh this one. Well its that warm and fuzz feeling, your screwing with mother nature as far as they are concerned. I dont buy it much either
-How come all the so called hard to find and "rare" corals in the trade are hardly ever classified as hard to find in nature?
Ahh this is a good one. First it depends on location, if its a deeper on or one found on more remote reefs, the collectors either dont go get it or charge a ton to collect it. Its easier to walk on a reef and snip then it is to dive 30 feet. The other is that corals of the same type can have different populations of pigments based on where they sit on the reef and what thier enviroment is. So if a collector see's a common coral but it is flaming pink because its getting UVed on a reef top, it becomes the rare, LE only 3 on the planet type of coral. Problem is that usualy once in the reef tank the pigment population reduce and normalize to what your lighting is.
-How come I can grow SPS and have clams under VHO when everybody and their mother says it is impossible?
Ahh tougher question. Again this pertains to percentages of absorbed, captured and from zoox. Although thier is a percentage that cannot be met in low light for certain corals and clams, then it becomes the slow death while growing game.
-How come my friend does not ahve a skimmer and goes for 6 months without a water change and he still have a very nice tank?
A skimmer is just but one form of exportation. If he has other means and keeps up good husbandry no problem. Every filtration method how ever has limitations, so as Confusus sayWhat works today may not work tommorow.
-How come people that have no tank or can't keep one alive are categorized as "experts" in the hobby?
:D Marketing Baby!!!!!!
-How come if 6500K bulbs are the only full spectrum bulbs similar to sunlight and all the others lack so much and have over abundance in narrow spectrums like 20000K bulbs, my corals still color up so nice and grow faster than in the ocean even with 20000K bulbs?
Because corals only use a small portion of the full spectrum, the higher K bulbs tend to focus just in those areas. The full spectrum bulb has the same waves corals need they just got a whole bunch more that the coral doesnt need.
-How come if water quality in my tank is so much crappier than the ocean the corals color up and grow faster than the ocean?
Corals need a few things to grow and be colorful. Food, current and light we supply all of those, we just also happen to supply some of the more polluted stuff to. So they will grow with the above mentioned requirements but its a different story on how long thier life spans will be.


MIke
 

dnjan

alveopora
Joined
Sep 9, 2003
Messages
1,585
Location
Seattle
Elmo18 said:
What's a skimmer? :D

- Elmo
That is a slang term for the guy who "cherry-picks" at the wholesaler before your buyer gets there. He skims off all the good stuff and calls them "rare", leaving the "normal" corals for us.
 

mojoreef

Reef Keeper
Joined
Jul 5, 2003
Messages
7,530
Location
Sumner
-How come if corals are supposed to eats pounds of all this stuff I can't supply they still grow faster than in the ocean with the master menu?
Not sure about the question, what stuff??
-What does a skimmer really take out?
hmm I am not sure about all the stuff, but dissolved organic compounds, particulate organic compounds, Particulate inorganic compounds, some planktonic life, stuff like that
What does the skimmate really do for the corals by depriving them of it?
Holy cow Alberto your on a roll. :p A skimmer will never deny corals anything in full, just percentages of the different things. In most hobby tanks we happen to have an over abundance of different things it takes out.
Do all skimmers take out the same compounds out of the water or do they vary in concentration and quantity based on the type of skimmer used?
another tough one. Yes thier is going to be quite a bit of variation based on the skimmer and the way you run it, ex: wet or dry. I would imagine thier might be a difference in compound also but thats a guess.
Does a tall skimmer really work better than a shorter one with the larger volumes of air we are using these days?
Well most skimmers dont use large volumes, just around 1 cfm for the most expensive ones. I dont think thier are any studies on this but the arguement is that taller skimmer get a more concentrated skimmate out as the water has longer to shed off the bubbles as it rises, but again wet and dry methods come into play.
-Why are UV sterilizers really bad?
thier not, thier great. Most folks just dont understand how they work.
-Why are UV so good for tanks?
They are a disinfector really. The water that travels through them will mostly come from the water cloumn and not from close to the rock or sand where most of the benifical bacteria live, also most larva dont swim out in the WC either for fear of preditaion. However algae spores, paracitic protazoa, paractic nemtodes, some harmfull bacteria do and thus will be sent through the UV and killed
Why are SPS corals in captivity much more brittle than the slow growing corals in the ocean?
Some are and some arent. The reason mostly has to do with water flow. If you take a coral from your tank and break it in two, put one peice in strong flow and one in low flow the coral in low flow will grow thinner and faster in height, the coral in the stronger flow will spend more time on thickening up, before it rises.


Ok I need another coffie :D

Mike
 
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